It's What We Do - Student Ministry Podcast
Join host Zac Priest and special guests as they share stories, give encouragement, and make connections from people living the life of ministry.
It's What We Do - Student Ministry Podcast
Episode 4 - Sowing Seeds of PURPOSE and VISION w/ Guest Chris Gully
Embark on a heartfelt journey with me, Zac Priest, as I sit down with someone who's more than a pastor—he's a long-standing comrade in faith, Chris 'the machine' Gully. Together, we navigate the transitions and triumphs of his ministry, from the vibrant days with Cimarron Baptist Association to his influential role at Cherokee Hills Baptist Church. Chris's candid reflections on almost a quarter-century of marriage, parenting grown kids, and the formative years at Northwest Baptist offer more than anecdotes; they provide a masterclass in cultivating a life of purpose and an enduring legacy of leadership.
This conversation delves into the foundational aspects of ministry—how we hold onto our vision and purpose amidst the whirlwind of leadership responsibilities. Chris and I dissect the powerful message of 2nd Corinthians 5, revealing how scripture informs our path to magnify the king and fortify his kingdom. We talk about aligning with our creator to discover our unique callings, shaping church culture, and embedding our vision into every facet of ministry. It's not just about avoiding burnout; it's about fostering a church ethos that resonates so deeply it becomes a living, breathing manifestation of our mission.
In a landscape where leadership transitions can be as precarious as walking a tightrope, Chris and I discuss the art of building relational equity and trust. We emphasize the importance of healthy leadership and the necessity of a collective approach to discernment and vision-casting. Listen closely as we unpack stories of implementing change with patience, intentionality, and the kind of excellence that only comes from a clear, communicable vision deeply rooted in spiritual conviction. We're peeling back the layers of ministry to reveal the transformational power of servant leadership and the collaborative spirit needed to nurture and sustain a thriving church community.
Hello and welcome to it's what we Do the student ministry podcast. Join your host, zach Priest, along with special guests, as they share stories, give encouragement and make connections from people living the life of ministry. Now let's dive into today's episode.
Speaker 2:Well, hey everybody, and welcome. We're so glad that you're here with us today. Welcome back to another episode of it's what we Do, the student ministry podcast. This is our fourth episode Today. I'm up in Oklahoma City Again. I was here for our last episode that dropped the second Tuesday, and that was with Kent Epling at Meadowood Baptist. So just a great guy, love Kent to death. I'm up here again, though this time I'm at Cherokee Hills Baptist Church with the one and only Chris, the machine gully there you go.
Speaker 1:I found was the there you go.
Speaker 2:So Chris is the lead pastor here at Cherokee Hills. Actually just not too long, about three years ago, made the transition from youth ministry into the dark side of pastoral leadership, I guess. That's what people say. I don't know, but Chris and I have known each other for about 20 or so years now. I think I had just gone full time. I've worked by Vogue at my home church and was working there and at Halberton and Duncan moved to Pawnee and you were at Perkins right.
Speaker 3:I was. Yeah, that was my first full-time youth pastoral position.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so same with me, so Semeron Baptist Association we did some good things together there.
Speaker 3:Throwback, yeah, some great ministry days.
Speaker 2:Just more recently, we've worked together and served on the Super Summer Board and, chris, you were the director for several years.
Speaker 3:I was for about eight years, yeah.
Speaker 2:Really enjoyed that and did good. So as we get started as our listeners know hopefully those that have heard before, if not we're going to start off with a little bit of a get to know you, and so tell us a little bit about yourself, your family, kids, that kind of stuff, and we'll get into your call and some of that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, of course, we got married for coming up on 25 years this year, this July, which is crazy and married to High School Sweetheart and she's my rock and just. We raised four amazing kids. It's a new season of raising adult children now.
Speaker 3:We've got two, an 18-year-old and a 20-year-old, and then a 13 and 11. And so it's been an interesting journey. I thought getting out of diapers and car seats was a wonderful season of transition, which is true, but then raising adults is the next level, and so just getting you know, having them launch and move into this new season, has been a new season for us. But yeah, so that's me and my family and love, my highest calling, which is raising my family.
Speaker 2:Well, and that's the thing I mean, because that was one of the things that I think that we were able to kind of connect on. You know, sorry, because, again, you know, my summer was my High School Sweetheart. This summer will be 24 for us, and so you know it's about the same time.
Speaker 3:You usually have a whole lot less career here than I do, though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and that's because I cut it off you know, and so I've got it real short so you don't notice, and then I can't grow a beard, so that helps too.
Speaker 3:Well, I'm trying.
Speaker 2:And so but but yeah, and so a lot of that, you know, we kind of mirrored in some of that we did. We re-rolled and so that was a whole different deal going off to college this year and that kind of stuff. And so, like I said it, it does, it gets crazy. One of the best things I remember with you we talked before about like you guys took, I think it was when you were still in Northwest Baptist you guys took a trip like in an RV, no, and drove around, but I remember Christy, whenever you guys had gone.
Speaker 2:I remember a post that she put I think it was on Instagram or Twitter or something and she was like you know, this morning I've already changed like three diapers, made six peanut butter and jelly sandwiches we don't know and we've been on the road for like 30 minutes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly, yeah. Well, I had the best seat in the house and the RV right, so we rented this RV and we're going this trip, and I think the best seat in that whole thing was the driver's seat, and so in the meantime, my wife did not realize that she was gonna be a stewardess for the next many hours but, there was lots of joys, lots of fun, lots of yeah.
Speaker 2:Good stuff, good stuff, well, and so, like I said, you've been here at Cherokee Hills for three years.
Speaker 3:Yeah, just finished three years on January 4th, which just seemed like it flew by Right, just incredible.
Speaker 2:And I mean, that's you know kind of that transition going from youth pastoral course. I mean at Northwest Baptist y'all were without a pastor for a couple of years and so you were kind of doing a lot of stuff you know right too.
Speaker 3:So it's kind of a step up.
Speaker 2:You know, quote unquote you know step up as far as you know they actually. You know you are the lead pastor, you know, but you were doing that stuff there and of course every you know pastor knows you know we're on staff, we do everything anyway.
Speaker 3:Yeah, at Northwest I had transitioned after several years about nine years from full the the student pastor alone, right Transitioning into the director super summer, but also as the family admissions pastor at Northwest.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and so I got to stretch my legs in different roles and and as I was still overseeing student ministry Right, and yeah, I know it's great and so I had the opportunity to kind of stretch my pastoral legs at Northwest in new ways in the absence of just pastoral leadership, right, and it grew me, grew me exponentially and prepared me for such time as this and I love it. Super summer is a huge part of that acceleration of leadership development and mentoring and equipping.
Speaker 2:That has really turned me into who the Lord's using me now as a new pastor so that's awesome, yeah, and that's what I've loved, you know, working with you and, like I said, getting to know you and that kind of stuff through the years and so a good friend. So I was excited to be able to come and talk with you today. We'll kind of get into some of that, but I always do kind of talk about people's. You know, some hobbies and things that you enjoy and you're you're gonna have a biker, I do.
Speaker 3:I do a lot of cycling and it's a lot of fun, it's for me, it's very therapeutic, it gets my mind cleared, it helps me stay focused and healthy on on mental, spiritual, physical. You might not think spiritual, but sometimes when you're on those long road rides you get to contemplate, thank and talking to the Lord and pray and it's very restorative for me and. I like it, but I also know that I can over train like I've done. I over, I over road and I end up jacking my foot up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's why you're kind of on reserve right now. I am.
Speaker 3:I'm still able to cycle, but very low quantities because I had a stress fracture in the foot for overtraining. So I can. I can overdo it, but I do. I love competitive mountain biking. I do race in some events, it just. But that's one of my favorite hobbies and or addictions, it depends on who you talk to who it is that you're talking to your wife.
Speaker 2:That is probably more of an addiction.
Speaker 3:But yeah, exactly, well, she's very much in favor of me cycling. A lot of times I've come home I might be overworked, anxious or whatever. Going on, she's like she'll say, hey, babe, just go ride, go for a ride, you got, you got three hours. Please don't come home until you've settled, and so but it I mean on a serious note, it's been an incredible tool, along with my abiding with the father and being in the word that the Lord's used to help me have longevity in ministry, and I've, for that's one of the secrets for me is having a third place, if you will, a place to go and kind of decompress. So but yeah, it's a big hobby.
Speaker 2:And that's the thing I mean. That's important. In fact, the the last episode that we did with with Kent Epling at Meadowood was, you know, longevity in ministry. He talked about that because we talked about, okay, how do you get in the right mindset, how do you do some of those things, and you know that was, you know, he kind of mentioned, you know some of you got to find a way to, you know, to go decompress a little bit Because we do you carry so much.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, and I can't imagine, like I said, I know other guys that have gone. You know from. You know youth ministry into that and of course you know whether you're a part-time bivou. You know whatever pastor, youth pastor, you know it's all full-time. But, you know, going from okay, I remember talking to to somebody else and I was like okay, you know we have stresses as youth pastors.
Speaker 2:You know, here's the stuff that we've got, we've got budget, we've got the schedules, we've got events, but then you kind of, you know, exponentially add on to that when you're talking about the whole church Right and so now you're you're leading not just your own ministry but other ministers as they're leading their ministries, and so you know what are some things that you've done as far as you know helping to other than you know biking and some of those things because we're gonna kind of get into this when we talk, you know, later but as far as you like, things that you've had to do to kind of help you inside of that process of of that changeover from. Okay, this was, I'm kind of, you know, limited in some of the things that I'm doing.
Speaker 3:My focus now it's everything you know what were some of the challenges that you faced. It's a great question, I think, as I ponder and kind of reflect back one of the things and I might have some past, you know, peer pastors disagree with me, right, and probably a lot of youth pastors cheering with me, but I will say that it is a significant increase of responsibility load and spiritual weight, right, but I will have to say that I don't have to be as much of a jack of all trades, right, as I did in student ministry. I had to be an expert in worship material and lighting and stair. I'd stare chair stacking, you know, have a doctorate in how to organize and place chairs in place, how to put, like, how to put this queen up on walls, and what materials to use and not use, and so, really, in student ministry, you do everything and I will say, physically and in somewhat time wise, even I worked way harder in student ministry as the pastor of everything than I am now, but my overseeing is so much greater, right, and so I think that's been a huge shift is understanding, like I know now, why guys often burn out is because you know, maybe they're a do-it-all pastor and the for me growing in understanding the ecclesiology of plurality. Right has been supreme for me.
Speaker 3:I got to really cut my teeth in that as we shifted the super summer culture and the board with the from the director to a plurality of leaders and I kind of got my feet wet in that, if you will. But moving into the pastorate, I had to do that Right, especially if we wanted to grow exponentially with the care of people and not just numerically but deep in the care. We had to have more pastors, more pastor oversight, more pastor care, and so my role has shifted more to shepherding shepherds and it has removed me. And student ministry had a significant influence and position in the community, more so than I do now. I'm working to reclaim that with some of the outreach things. But it was a very easy win, shooting fish in a barrel, being in the schools and having the availability to do some of those things. So I've had to recapture that and I've been working towards that with some of the things I'm doing now in the community. So those are a couple of things just off the top that I think have been an adjustment. I'm still learning. I'm still a green pastor, if you will.
Speaker 3:I've been in ministry for over 25 years in a pastoral sense, but it is a new role, but I'm loving it. It's very clear that this is what the Lord had next In student ministry. When I was in that, I'd always thought, hey, this is it, I'm gonna be like one of your performer guests, like the Kent Epplings. I saw myself that way, which we should. We should be thinking about our ministry not as a stepping stone ever, but, with that being said, I also know that the Lord has seasons for us and I know that this is where the Lord has me in this pastoral season.
Speaker 2:Well, that's fantastic, and so just a little bit, kind of to get to know you some more, can you tell me about just your call, how you initially came into this idea that, okay, that I'm supposed to be in a pastoral role, first as a youth pastor and then kind of just you don't have to go super in depth, but I mean there might be guys and the hope of the podcast itself is that maybe people can look at and go, okay, that's me, I was that guy. Okay, I know that I've got support. Or you had a particular call. You had, I mean, and being on the Super Summer Board with you and seeing some of that, the way that you wrestled for a couple of years going okay, I don't know what this next step is.
Speaker 2:I know that there's a step. I don't know what that looks like and then, when you did follow in faith and you did take that next step, that meant, okay, I've got to let go of some things.
Speaker 2:And so that's when you stepped away from the board, even though I mean from the outside, I would say you were passionate about that your involvement in that and had great connection with people that were on there, and so sometimes falling to the Lord means we got to let go of some things to grab onto others, and so there might be someone to listen in. That maybe is wrestling with this. That could get something from that from you.
Speaker 3:And so just share a little bit about yeah, I may have had more of an untraditional or a journey through that. I remember early on in high school, as the Lord was drawing me to himself, desiring to make an influence and impact for the kingdom, and I remember a gentleman by the name of Paul Wees, an old school youth pastor from back in the day, worked with FCA. I was an athlete at the time and he had asked me as a junior to come speak to the middle school or the junior high football team and share a little bit about my faith journey, my testimony, and I had done that and it was almost like I sat down and was like that's it, this is the way you walk in it and I just continued to say yes. When a door was available, I just continued to put my yes on the table and let the Lord close the doors, and so in an unhealthy manner that could get you over, worked and burnt out, but also you have to let the Lord navigate some of that and protect you from some of that. But early on and that was a part of that journey and then going to Oklahoma State getting an education degree, thinking that that was the path in terms of like working and volunteering for the youth group and having a missional place in the school. And then the Lord opened the door for me to step out of teaching and educational sense at the secondary science level and coaching and called me to serve as an interim youth pastor. But even in that journey I knew that the Lord was navigating me away from the education field in these public school system. And then I ended up at Perkins, like we're serving and meeting you, for seven years. And then Northwest wasn't 13 years and same thing with the journey through each of these doors, I never really saw it out and put my name out there.
Speaker 3:And until recently, in fact, the season of that feeling that you and I were talking about, that the Lord's doing a work in me, that there's something new he has, and I didn't know what that was. In fact, I was kind of wrestling with the willingness to be a senior pastor or a lead pastor, because preaching wasn't my number one passion. It was something I felt that was important and vital and very serious to Steward, but it wasn't something that, like, I felt longing for to preach every single Sunday, and so for me to surrender to that was, you know something that the Lord had to navigate in my heart. I also know the weight that the pastor can have from that lead role and Seeing other pastors either fail or burn out. I, I, I also said I'm not gonna do it that way.
Speaker 3:Right, and I begin to look at Scripture and say what is an alternative way of shepherding that might be more biblical, and begin to look at things, like I mentioned earlier in the Plorality of leadership.
Speaker 3:And so that's been kind of my journey of calling us super fast. Of course there's a lot of story in that, a lot of great God moments of clarification and even in that confusion of I don't know and you and I talked about that even while serving as the director, my last year or two Just knowing that the Lord was navigating me, and then that was in. That journey of stepping down from Super Summer Was a big journey because my heart was, I wanted, I want Super Summer to have the best and I wasn't able to give myself to its fullness to a new church and and what Super Summers deserved. And so for me I realized the whole time none of these ministries belonged to me, right, I was only passing a passing steward, and so you know, with that, it gave me a lot more liberty to be able to give up something I was incredibly passionate about right and be able to hand that off to great leadership moving forward.
Speaker 2:Well, and that's what and I mean, and so, talking about that, you know we're gonna kind of come at this and kind of get into our topic and this one specifically with you. Like I said, I think you're passionate about Everything gospel transmission, you know all these things but I think it all kind of comes in the vein of doing stuff one with a purpose and two with excellence.
Speaker 2:You know we talked about that, you know right bit as we were transitioning kind of like, you said that the, the leadership dynamic and kind of. You know what that looks like inside the board. I know that you were doing that at at Northwest before you. Even you know the director. I know that you have been doing that, you know here as the the lead pastor. But but first so if we're gonna talk about kind of vision and purpose inside of this, you know what when we, when we say that there there might be some guys that are kind of green, you know yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's like, okay, I don't mean, I'm, I'm still, I'm learning. You know which keys go to what. Yeah, where where everything goes. The last guy did it this way and so maybe they haven't really started this process yet. I've tried to push into Creating a vision because, like we said I think you know Kent said last time and it was something that I heard before, but he said even you know one of his.
Speaker 2:You know mentors Dave Busby, you know had said, you know to him, Okay, give it, give it like three years. And I remember him telling me that early on Because Kent was one of you know my mentors get getting into and he was like, okay, that first year you just need to see what the calendar is like. You know what do they do, what's work. Take good notes, you know what's working, what's not working, but figured out in the second year how can we make things better. In the third year you make it really yours and then you start, you know, pushing well, but that was very purposeful, you know from the very you know beginning of that. And so maybe some guys that are even green in this and they they're, they're, you know, brand new to ministry, they're brand new to their churches, or maybe even guys that are in there and they're trying to reinvent Themselves or refocus a ministry. We talk about purpose and vision. What does that mean to you in that ministerial aspect?
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, when you think about purpose and ministry, you think about the idea what, what, what's the purpose of anything like this microphone? The very reason this Tool exists is for a single purpose, right? I think the same is true for who we are and how he's wired us. And so we think about purpose and ministry. You know, I think we have to think about why does my Ministry even exist right, what it, what?
Speaker 3:what am I Created for? And obviously I turn turned to scripture and hit in the word to kind of derive that. And for me Everything hinges on the word and I draw my value, my worth, my very purpose and in particular ministry, obviously, from the author of truth and reality. And so, like I really draw that from and for me personally and I think in ministry for me, and how I shape our Culture here, how we began to talk about our kingdom cause, if you will, a super summer and that was that was a big, big idea is shifting the vision and values. A super summer to that Kingdom cause, right, and so it was fun games that people would play on the board. To how many times, how many times director Chris said Kingdom living, our kingdom cause or kingdom?
Speaker 2:leaders kingdom anything?
Speaker 3:Yeah, we play, play bingo, it's how many times? Yeah, but may I tell you what? I've heard it said before and I can't remember the author, but visions like a leaky bucket. Yeah, they constantly pour into it and constantly feed that. But for me I draw that from 2nd Corinthians 5.
Speaker 3:Looking at verse 15, says he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves, and Then goes on to talk about this calling that we have as new Believers, new born-again people that are very existence is new now and Says, therefore, anyone is in Christ, is a new creationals past, and we know this has come from the reconciliation of God.
Speaker 3:And then he gives us that purpose in verse 20. Therefore, we are Christ's ambassadors. So when it comes to ministry, everything has to filter around that and it's very easy in leadership roles like directing Super Summer, pastoring a church, leading a youth ministry, to lose sight of the fundamental, foundational purpose of why we exist is to magnify the king and build his kingdom, especially when you have parents who are bearing down on you to make sure their kids are happy, or dealing with all kinds of auxiliary pressures from your pastor or from things at home, or you fill in the blank and then we become people pleasers instead of, you know, kingdom influencers, and that's what that abiding with the father is so important, and and and Listening to the voice of the Lord and we want to hear from him is is that that purpose? When it comes to purpose in ministry, literally, I think I would encourage a young Green youth pastor or someone who's just pondering like why am I doing what I'm doing?
Speaker 3:or maybe a guy who's you know, cynical upset and ready to quit is To remember your call, remember why we even exist and how to shape what we do around that, that purpose of why I exist, and that's really what drove our whole Reformation of super summers vision, value, curriculum structure and everything was around that, that very idea of what students are we trying to produce with purpose, right, you know?
Speaker 2:so that's Kind of that, is so that's good, that's a good word and and so you kind of talk about Inside of that. You know how, how important that is, you know, for us as individuals because it does. It goes back to those things of we start on the right foot if, if we're young and and we're just getting in the ministry, we're trying to develop purpose, we start out with a good, with the, with the right foundation, right when we're, you know, like you said, maybe you know, facing some, some issues of burnout and those types of things, it helps to again refocus and shore up those things. And so you know you've talked a little bit about you know kind of how important it is to continue to follow that and continue to pour that in because I mean, we can, you know we can say what we wanted to and you know the Chris bingo with you know, keep it whatever, what, what you know, is he gonna use that for an adjunct for?
Speaker 2:but I mean, after a couple years, it was, it was very intentional that okay, we're, we're constantly hearing this, we're constantly living this, and so when we talk about the, the purpose of vision, we talk about the, the purpose and intentionality of creating that insider that. How do you, how would you suggest, as far as besides just you know, continuing to repeat, continuing to be Developing that, maintaining, you know, that purpose inside of a ministry, how do you, kind of, you know, go forward with that inside of the ministries that you're a part?
Speaker 3:of, yeah, that's good. I mean, first it's it's understanding that we're not creating our own purpose, right, but we're Connecting with our our creator, connecting with Christ, to find out and like, why do I even exist and so, therefore, what's my purpose? And then beginning to kind of Shape that I think when you ask the question of how do we keep that Vision going in front of people, man, I, I love some of the tools that I use from like will Manassee me, who I'm a big fan of in his Helping churches identify their unique calling, right. There's a book I read and I've used it a lot when it comes to forming, casting and capturing vision called church unique. Instead of trying to just kind of Replicate what the church down the street is doing or the church across the nation that we see successfully in our eyes doing it's, is learning what is unique calling that this church has been given, beginning to pray through that identify that. For us it's like painting a picture Everywhere, like when we did was, like when we're doing that here, right, we, we believe that our church exists to bring restoration, to grow and to live, since so restore, growth in is a big part of our cycle.
Speaker 3:But that vision isn't just a big picture. It goes to the granular. So it affects how we Develop our small groups, it affects how we engage in worship, it affects our, our youth ministry, children's ministry. It flows through everything we do, same thing like we did with super summer. It was, it was something that we championed every time we got together. Every time we Every, every piece of art, every marketing material, all all the all. It bled through everything we did. Every time I stood in front of leadership or the exec staff or the TL's, it was always Obviously modeling the value of God's word that our, our vision, our values come from Christ in his word, and then beginning to kind of create that culture is what you're doing, or you're kind of setting a cultural tone with Everything that you do, and so even yes, so yeah, that's kind of the again quick drive by without getting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, without getting into the weeds of the particulars which we could in our time. If that's something, that's a part of it. Yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, and I mean, and that's and you said that's the important thing too to remember is sometimes I think that we in, in student ministry specifically, I think that probably more so than, and even children's and worship and in some of those things, but in, in Student ministry I said it with Kent, I do and I don't like the word relevant. You know we try to be, you know, relevant in what we're doing. We want to provide, you know, good opportunities to draw because, like you said, you know parents are. You know what are you doing for your kids for this? You know we had several. You know, asking the Super Bowl, you know we just played. It is the youth having a Super Bowl party. What are you going to do for this? And it's like every you know break that the school has. There's got to be something.
Speaker 2:You know, that's going on and so you're going through these different seasons and times and calendar and stuff. But I think a lot of times what can happen is in student ministry we're so busy trying to push those things that we almost become an island, we become a satellite to the ministry of the overall church and so and you kind of, you know, mentioned that hey, the vision of the church and the vision of what our particular footprint looks like, we're not in Southern California, we're not in, you know, metro Dallas, you know, even in Oklahoma City there's a lot of people, hopefully, that are listening. It's like, okay, you're not in Oklahoma City.
Speaker 2:You're in you know Macalester, or you're in Duncan, or you're in my, you know, home to a little central high that's a farm here you got to. You can't do everything, you know the same way, but it's also important not to just try to, you know, be like that other church that's doing something good, but to be your own thing inside of your ministry. It's vital for you to jump on board and your entire church, every ministry, go that same way. So, like you said, with yours, your those, those vision statements, those points are are throughout your entire church. And so we have to make sure that in student ministry, we're not, you know so much of you know, trying to be, you know, relevant to trying to push our own agenda, that we become separate from what our church as a whole is doing.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, and so, as far as in this role as a pastor, how do you kind of, you know, do that, what? What would you encourage other pastors, maybe, if they're listening, or student pastors if, if they feel like they're have kind of pulled away, or if they look. You know, hopefully you're going to critically look at your ministry, you know, when you're listening to this and go, okay, am I doing that? Have I pulled away from our church's mission, or have I even you know, asked you know what? What are our core values?
Speaker 3:Right, right, am I even bought in.
Speaker 2:Right? Am I bought in with that or how can I? So how, how would you suggest or what is some some things that we could do to help make sure that we're doing that inside of ministry?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean for me as a new pastor, one of the biggest things is to make sure our other pastoral staff and our team is healthy and to care for them and to make sure that they're being taken care of, that they're being loved on, that they're avoiding burnout. I mean just at a very basic level, that that they're in the word, they're abiding with Jesus Right and they're following the Holy Spirit. If I, if I'm doing that as their pastor, just starting from top down, and same thing I did with our board like I'm making sure the guys that come to serve on this, on this incredible team, are healthy, right, are accountable, are being coached, are being mentored, and so that's a huge part and I think what I've learned. You know each transition and you know if you've transitioned from one church to another, you know there's a season of earning street cred, earning the right to speak into people's life. Some of it is automatic because of the title, but real life change and real like I'm following you is when you've earned the right to speak into someone's life because they know you, you got their back right, that you love them and you care for them, and that takes some of that, takes relational equity and time to build that trust. So I believe it starts there and then, as you cast that vision and you share your heart and you're checking your own heart to make sure it's not selfish motivation, that it is coming from a genuine kingdom cause and not building my kingdom, people can tell when you're selling a product or you're, you know you're genuinely seeking to serve others and build the kingdom of God and it's amazing what people will do and being all in and it's not being manipulative, right, but it's building a team of people who say you know, I'm bought into that.
Speaker 3:And I think it starts there, starts with shepherding and caring for your staff really well, more above how they perform or if they're growing a ministry according to whatever standards that you've kind of curated right. That may be healthy or not, I don't think a lot. We have a lot of shadow side operating pastors who are operating from a shadow side of unhealthy, because they have things that they're not healthy in there. They've got pressures of maybe toxic deacons who are breathing down their neck on unhealthy things and so they're projecting that onto their staff and then it just creates this very unhealthy environment. So starting with a very solid, healthy, emotionally and spiritually healthy leadership is fundamental, foundational.
Speaker 3:As they get bought in on that biblical vision, it'll start to trickle leading down. They'll start looking and you start meeting and caring for those staff, like a youth pastor who might be wrestling with how to match that vision up with what is unique with students, like our small group ministry. For adults is it going to look identical to the youth because the structure slightly different, but there's aspects that they're adopting already to help set them up for adjusting to their graduation season into adulthood and into you know. So there's a lot of little thing and nuances like that, but fundamentally it starts with just shepherding people really well and loving people and serving them above your own agenda and caring for people more than you know. Some kind of results that we've fabricated and curated out of our own on health, and so I think that's where a lot of lack of following people's vision and or getting it really out there amongst the other pastoral areas like children and youth and maybe worship or you know other, you know mission pastors and it starts with that relational buy-in.
Speaker 2:Well, and that's what you know.
Speaker 2:I remember there was a I don't remember who said it, I just remember it was a long time ago, but I heard someone say you know that leadership is working with the, you know particular grain of wood that you're given you know, and so, like you said, everybody's got their own gifts and talents and everybody has you know their own things, and if we're, you know, too busy trying to push you know ours and what we want, then we're not helping people to reach their you know potential, and so I think that's a good word.
Speaker 3:You know, to be a good shepherd is what it is to be a good leader, and so I really like that and if I'm modeling that well and Christ-like, then our prayer is that each of our shepherds, if leaders are modeling that and doing that in their home, they're doing that with their volunteers.
Speaker 3:They're doing that and it creates and it bleeds through the culture, it bleeds through the church and it breeds health. Right, if a leader from the top is toxic, if they're operating from their dark side, shadow side, it'll, it's going to trickle it down, right, and so anyway.
Speaker 2:Well, and so that's good. As far as, like you know, practical, I like to be able to talk about, you know, the practicality of what we're doing, and so we talk about practically if we're going to, you know maybe do you know a list, some check boxes, whatever else that people need to do when we talk about, okay, you know, developing a good vision, developing good purpose, of course we know foundationally comes from our relationship with Christ, following his leading. What are some steps, then, that people need to take as far as things that you've done that have been successful, if there's things that you tried that failed miserably, you know, and it's like, hey, that might work in somebody else's context, but this didn't work, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I got those.
Speaker 2:I'll give you some of those yeah, we have those in a bucket with plenty of examples. But as far as practically you know, casting vision and that excitement for that purpose inside of your church you know how do you normally do that as far as driving that purpose through your church culture, through your volunteers, through your other staff members, yeah Well, what not to do?
Speaker 3:one example I won't give a story, but is to come up with some cool idea and a cool name like relevant, and then try to figure out a scripture that could fit with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Introduce it to your leadership and go. This is what God's doing, join me. It's again leading people. So I really am a huge advocate of seeking God's face, praying. When I got here you know you're a part of this journey I got to Super Summer.
Speaker 3:We spent time praying, seeking God's face. I asked a team of those who felt called to be a part of our group to pray through. We had about six or eight of our guys on the board who we got in the room and just asked God like what is your direction? What do you want? And we just began to pray, seek God's face, and we started writing stuff down and sharing from the overflow of our journey with the Lord. And that's how that germinated and that's that was the inception of everything. We began to do with the kingdom, living kingdom, leadership, you know, and all of that that we begin to shape Right. And so when I got here, one of the things we did and again that some of the stuff is maybe some of my leadership development in seminary again will manage, seen these resources that I've used for developing vision casting and keeping vision with church unique but I circled our leadership up.
Speaker 3:I gathered extra people who were, if you will, legacy leaders or gatekeepers and began to ask and journey through a retreat, like we did, a super summer, seeking God's face and asking some poignant questions. One is what is one thing that our church is, can do and does so well that another church down the street isn't doing Right? So some, some particular DNA questions that help unwrap what's unique about our church, right, and what is what is something that is a like a heart string or what is a heartbeat that has been classically a part of Church of Gales Baptist, you know, and in praying and asking, letting people write things down, and we come back together and collaborate, and it became very apparent that this church was a place of restoration. Right, we'd story after story that was shared, whether in that prayer time or in different conversations that the Lord of Bright has brought healing. People have come who were hurt and burdened and broken and they experienced supernatural restoration and health and former staff who were served in a very toxic church environments coming and and experiencing that. And so, through that time of prayer and talking to some of our, our just patriarchs of the church and matriarchs was was, this is a place of restoration, so that we, we, we, we plastered that all over with graphics and language and vision and values. And so we, we exist to bring restoration.
Speaker 3:And then we looked at scripture and what, what does God calling our church to do Like? Are we, ecclesiologically, supposed to just sit there? No, we know. We know, biblically, there are some things that we could consider. We know the book of Acts is it necessarily prescriptive? It's very descriptive, but there's some things that you can draw on. And so we began to do that and we saw growing and discipling is a huge part of of our need after restoration. For what purpose? Well, we know the church was scattered and sent, and so so we began to map through that journey, through some very intentional questions, and we began to also look at you know, what, what, what, what are our vision? That's how we gather our vision and then our values. So our vision is we exist to restore, grow and send. And that all stemmed from that extended retreat and it was about a three month journey.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Similar to super summer, on identifying and discerning what God had for that ministry or our church next, right. And then we spent time asking, okay, what are our mandates? So we had, we had kind of our vision, basically our passions, right. Then what? What are the things that churches should be doing period Like? And so that's how we landed on we are gospel centered, community engaged and Christ led. Right and those are our what's the DNA?
Speaker 3:you know the church and that that's some core things and so. But then after that it's great. A lot of times you guys stop there and they put that piece of paper in a folder and they go. Great, now let's keep doing what we're doing.
Speaker 3:No no change? Yeah. And so the next season was a year of refining our ministry structure around our vision and values. How does that change? How we teach and gather and and do missions and be the church? And so we began to talk about our map, which is the pathway, our vehicle to accomplish our vision and values. And so we began to say, okay, what are the things, obviously, that are non negotiables, because we're like, is he church that? Like, we're not. We're not going to give up, right like one, we're selling Baptist church. We highly value the cooperation of our state's convention. That's a huge part of our heartbeat. We're not giving up false creed, period, that's, that's a non negotiable.
Speaker 3:So we talked about those and then, outside of that, and we said, okay, what are the things that might need to change in order to even ask false creed reflect these vision, values, how do we achieve those? And so we systematically begin to talk through and that's what? How we went from our classical Sunday school model with large gatherings of one teacher and 30, 40, 50, 60 people in a room replicating what we do technically on Sunday morning worship, and even some of the rooms having their own guitar and worship to okay, how do we model, restore, grow, send at in there, and that's where we came begin to develop our, our systems of small group and, without wasting all of our time, in the short time we have, we begin to form our group ministry around the same thing. The idea of restoration and transformational teaching was a DNA of a small group gospel, community, mission of living. Those are three parts of a small group that also mirror our restore, grow, send.
Speaker 3:And so the last three years we've been bringing reform to every part of our church to match the biblical mandates and the unique that calling that the church is, that the Lord's given us on our children's pre-K, youth mission, you know, missions, group ministry, everything around those vision, values. And that map became our guide to continually think, okay, how are we mobilizing, multiplying, looking at New Testament scriptures, to, to, to kind of tweak things. And then we talked about our measures. When do we know we've we've reached a goal and really map that out, and so so all I have to say is those, those are some of the nuts and bolts, and I'd be happy to help meet with other guys if that's something that's resonating in the hearts of some of those listeners is, I'd be, of course, is more of a favorite topics is casting vision and giving purpose.
Speaker 2:I'd be happy to sit down at a deeper level yeah, outside of our time here and well, I said even in the context of where they're at, because that kind of changes, you know some of that too.
Speaker 2:So lots of things can change. But there there are two things that you kind of said if you would kind of speak Into a little bit, just maybe the importance of those things two things that were kind of a in that vein, across all those, as you continue To say, one, it's a journey, and so I think a lot of guys want you know, I'm gonna rub the lamp, I'm gonna snap my fingers and this thing is gonna be taken off right now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you want to get out of this truth. That's the case.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, because it's like okay, you know, you see, the initial aspect of that was, like you know, three months, and then it took a whole year to further develop that and I think a Lot of times that's what we're, we want to cast vision. I think a lot of times the reason that that paper ends up inside of that folder, inside of the cabinet or in the desk and nothing Else changes is because it takes a lot of work in a long time.
Speaker 1:It's easy. We're very impatient, right, you know and so.
Speaker 2:but then the second thing that I kind of noticed In your discussion of that, it was it was a lot of we. You know it's not all hold on. I it's, this is what I did, this is what I was pushing, this was my thing, and you said that you know, okay, we can't push our own agenda. Yeah, but I think in just about everything that you said over just the last few minutes those two were were in that vein of it takes time and it's a team, it's yeah it's all of us and so kind of the importance of those things inside of your system.
Speaker 3:Yeah, let me speak to the latter real quick. On the we, a first, I am Donna boss. Yeah, like that. And if you are a in ministry, you are not a boss, right, you are not in charge of anything. You were stewarding everything and so like it, like as a pastor and a minister is so easy.
Speaker 3:Whether you're overseeing youth, children, any kind of even in a volunteer verse small group, we are only stewards, right, jesus is our senior pastor and we're partnering with him to steward according to his will, his call on his purpose. Do we have responsibilities? Yes, are we are? There's a buck stop with people? Yes, but it's very easy for us to to begin to adapt and adopt, ah, cultural aspects of the CEO top-down model, right, when Jesus clearly blew that out of the water with Washing feet and serving others and like.
Speaker 3:And so when it comes to the we, when you know you're only Stewarding and you in, it's not, it's not my church, it's, it's nothing's mine, it's much easier To be collaborative, to give the ministry way. And also, what's liberating is when someone's upset with me, okay, I Want to restore that, but but I don't lose sleep, right, and? And so that's very liberating as well on that side. Yeah, and so that that's it. That's it's which makes it so much more fun, and it it's been helping me prevent burnout when, when it doesn't rise and fall on me, I'm just a steward and a shepherd passing through this church. Lord willing will be here in 30 years when I'm, lord willing, retired.
Speaker 3:No, I'm riding more bikes and other places yeah and so I think that Fundamental view of your role Is important, and and the collaborative aspect to include people in that journey Also affirms that I don't have all the gifts right and it brings people who are creative, who are Discerning, who are wise, who have these different gifts to the table, and and that's that one in your former, with regards to you, yes, remind me in the time? Yeah, because we oh, the timeline right.
Speaker 2:Right, you know me mentality right when you adopt that it's it's my way of the highway, then you know you have a tendency to kill, but Also that it doesn't happen. Yeah, overnight it's not a snap of the fingers and this is done.
Speaker 3:Right and and are you coming into this new ministry? I know there's those, those camps who say, man, don't do anything, don't change anything for three years. That I don't think you can always go at every context and scenario like that, right, there's a yeah, you're right, there takes time to build trust, inequity. Over the last three years I've gone from hey, that's the pastor to that hey, you're my pastor, right and and that, yeah, again, that takes investment. You know, being in the hospital with a husband's who's grieving a sick spouse and and and carrying those burdens with people being on the mission, filled with people rubbing shoulders and getting dirty and all of those things.
Speaker 3:When it comes to that, and that does take time, right, and at the same time, when it comes to shaping culture in vision, it's it's like good barbecue. It's low and slow, yeah, like it takes. It does take time, but we should never use that. There's two sides to that coin. We should never use that as an excuse to not introduce change, because sometimes we're fearful of what that people think or what kind of response we might get, so forth and so on. Again, it's leading people and so I Think it takes longer because I have, I find, it very important to meet with as many people as possible in order to Onboard people to the vision.
Speaker 2:Well, it gives them ownership. Yeah, you know, inside of that, the more people that can speak into it. It's not? Hey, this is Chris's idea.
Speaker 1:This is a pastor's idea.
Speaker 2:This is, this is our idea.
Speaker 1:Yeah, as a church, that you said, it's the.
Speaker 3:It becomes the fingerprint, the heartbeat of yeah of that congregation well and likely listeners who know me and or know our church. You know I've been talking about other changes to come, yeah, and in those changes I've I've kind of got some guys around that are outside their staff, if you will, and Different leaders and say, hey, I'm thinking about this, what do you think you know? And even if they say you know, I don't like that if we go ahead and go through it, at least they do go through with that change. They. They were kind enough to ask and and Not like get my thoughts and right, and they're still in.
Speaker 2:I was able to speak into right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we, we, we did some radical stuff in auditorium and, frank, you know we didn't ask permission Because it was a non-essential and it's not an eternal issue. We painted the entire backdrop of our auditorium black. We communicated and let them get feedback. We still did it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And so there's there's leadership, and we have to be very gracious and loving, but I, you know, there's this this careful navigation of being ruled by people's opinion and being paralyzed to make change, versus carefully shepherding and walking people and learning how to lead race horses, how to pull Donkeys and how to.
Speaker 2:It's a very diplomatic way. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:I could use the biblical term and, and I'm learning how to do that. You know I learned a lot over the last season, in super summer, to even Northwest, so yeah, well, and so that kind of you know leads as far as we're talking about.
Speaker 2:I mean, all those things that we said are very intentional. Right, you know you're purposeful in in the way that you're doing that, and so when we talk about that, developing Ministry excellence Starts with that ministry intentionality. This is something that we're we're going to do, and I think you've kind of said that you know, through this whole thing, it's like okay, this is the direction we're gonna go. Now we don't know exactly what that is, we don't know exactly what that's gonna look like at the end, may, but we're, we're all getting on the bus, we're going this direction.
Speaker 2:So how do you drive? How do you develop that, that idea of intentionality in Inside of this, this you know purpose, as you have done this over the last you know a few years with with your people here, how do you communicate that Intentionality to those people so then that way, they can take that ownership, like we said, and then continue to drive. That you know, in in the lack of your presence, okay, it's not just it's not just me, it's all of us. So how do you onboard people to?
Speaker 3:be able to help be intentional. Yeah, one of the things is it has to be simple, has to be clear, concise and simple. You know, when it comes to like a vision statement, it can't be if you can't repeat it after meeting with me in a couple of minutes.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's too broad, long and complex right when it comes to that idea of vision and purpose. So it has to be easily reproducible Something and I don't want to be Get too much into the marketing side, but it has to be recognizable, Reproducible. When we did super summer, you know it took me a couple years to figure out what the vision was when it was once. You know, send us your best and we'll send them back better. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Not bad in concept, no, no, but yeah. So there is a very granular, practical level.
Speaker 3:It has to be something that's easily Uh-huh, we repeatable right, and so that's why we came up very simple we exist to restore, grow and send. Yeah and inside of that, of course, we can sit back down and Dig into the granular, if you will, with people and what that means, and we do that in our new pathway called connect class.
Speaker 3:Right and that's one of the things we do In our new membership class right is we On board our covenant members to our vision, values, path map and and measures all of that how we govern and how we, how we do church and I all of that's kind of introduced to them. It's also plastered in vision statements all over the church with icons to one word statements. It's in our pre-service video. At the end of our service we always do a commissioning and we're always talking about the restoration growing and we always send. We talk about sending people.
Speaker 3:So it's language and I talk to our staff all the time about the importance of just repeating that vision, keeping it in front of you, because if it's not just a whimsical, cool idea that I found this awesome word that's relevant and I attach some kind of justifiable scripture to it, there's a deep rooted spiritual conviction that has kind of had this stake in the ground moment for our church. That's not just a fad idea, but really who we are. Then it's sticky and has longevity and it brings meaningful change. And so I think on a very practical level, that reproducibility, stickability and those things kind of like we did with building kingdom leaders it wasn't something that we just whimsically came up with it was really prayed through and on our faces before the Lord and asking God what does he want with Super Summoner Like?
Speaker 3:what's his purpose?
Speaker 2:I remember when I first got into ministry, one of the guys that was a mentor of mine.
Speaker 2:I met with him for the whole year that I first got in.
Speaker 2:One of the great things that then it was Okimo, the Oklahoma Youth Ministers Association, but they had a mentorship program and went through, and so Steve Bullard he was at Southern Hills and Tulsa was the guy that went through that with me and so we talked about what it meant to have a daily schedule and all these different kinds of things, the administrative side of it. But I remember walking into his youth facility and that's what they had their vision statement on the wall. They had their core values in posters and different things that were on and one of the things when we first started talking about that I just kind of asked I was like, okay, so how do you develop this? Because, again, I came from being Bivou, I came from doing this. This wasn't my full-time job. To now I'm kind of running that show and I remember him saying it's like, okay, if you can't just like what you said, if you can't repeat it, then how are you going to expect them, the people that you're leading?
Speaker 1:to do that.
Speaker 2:And if no one knows it, is that really a vision, is that really core? And so I remember him kind of pouring into me those same things.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and if it's not something that's coming from the core of your spirit and you're not passionate about it, yeah and so and you don't feel like it's a God thing, like a know that it's a God thing, then it can be just dismissed and kind of go back to business as usual or just playing church Because we're good, especially if you've done it year, then year out just hit, repeat every year.
Speaker 1:Yep, let's check off the same box and that's easy and a bit lazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but anyway, Well, I appreciate you spending time with us. Any final thoughts, any last things? One of the things that I've asked some other is okay, if you had to give some advice to yourself when you first started. Maybe any final things that you want to share with our listeners?
Speaker 3:Man. Yeah, if I could go back and tell my younger version of myself when I started ministry parenting, leading it'd probably be chill out, dude, relax. Now some of our listeners who know me from early super summer days in my first year of directing super summer would probably agree yeah, bro, you should have chilled out. Just bring it down a little bit. No, but on a like, what I mean by that is like one, don't take yourself too serious, you're not the gatekeeper of all things.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like I see these discussions and in this kind of real, pious social media posts on like forces that need to be heard and like, dude, just do your job. Yeah, and you know, preach the gospel and teach the word, love your family and have fun. Like, relax, rest, well. So for me it would be like I'll probably say bring your intensity down a little bit and laugh a whole lot more, because the truth is in our roles, whatever capacity that is within the framework of, whether nonprofit for Christ, super summer camp and ministry, church ministry. We're wrestling with forever, we're wrestling with people's eternity, and that can get really heavy, weighty and as it should, right. But if we're stewards, I think also there should be just time to just relax a little bit. Take it easy, don't? You don't have to fight every single battle, don't worry about it.
Speaker 3:And my new goal as a pastor here's my new goal and you guys could take this as young advice is my goal is to manage the rate at which I disappoint people. I'm going to disappoint, probably especially those closest to me Spouse children. Like every deacon probably some of our elders like there's going to be to. If I can manage the rate at which I disappoint, then I'm doing well. So meaning like a, that doesn't mean I gives me a license to be a jerk, but at the same time that's kind of part of what I'm learning. So anyway.
Speaker 2:Well, that's good and, like I said, thank you so much for being with us. I really appreciate it. I love getting to spend time with you and to hear your heart. You know about this and something you're passionate about, and so I appreciate you sitting down and talk with us and, like we said, and so if you're listening and and do want to reach out to Chris, this is something that that you need some help with or or you know anything like that Like I said, he'd love to sit down with you. All the others that I've interviewed about the same things. Man, if we can be a help, that's that's what we want to do.
Speaker 2:So, you can reach out and connect with us on social media. We've got Facebook and Instagram and and that kind of stuff, some YouTube. You can send us an email. If you have questions, thoughts, different things that you want to. You know, ask if you have a question for any one of my guests, but especially if you have one for Chris and don't have his contact information, then you can email me at it's what we doiwwd at gmailcom and then that way we can help and get that, but get connected with us. Hopefully you enjoyed this one and hopefully you'll come back and check again. So thanks.
Speaker 2:Thanks again, Chris, for being with us.
Speaker 3:Thank you, zach, it was an honor. He asked me, oh it was.
Speaker 2:It was my pleasure and I hope that everybody is doing well. Our next episode will air again the second week in March, and so I'm going to be talking with Brad Eason, who is a Southern Oklahoma Regional Director for FCA, and so we're going to talk about making connections and building cooperation inside of ministries. So we're going to look not just at other churches in our towns and associationally, but also other ministry related entities and how we can be a part of that, and so I hope that you'll tune in for that too. So thanks for listening and I hope that you have a blessed day and we'll talk to you next time. Thanks, guys.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to this episode of it's what we Do. If you like what you heard, make sure to hit the like button and subscribe For questions or topic ideas for future shows. Connect through social media or email Until next time.
